I took part in James Bach's Testing Challenge at Weekend Testing recently. Pradeep Soundararajan reviewed my report and spoke about the gaps in my testing effort as well as the report. As always, I revisited my report to figure out areas that need improvement(read dismal performance report). One of the key problems with my report was that - I did not question the mission that was given to me. I did skype James before the testing session with a few questions that were either too broad or too open ended. James did help me by rephrasing a few questions. However, I did not use this opportunity to its fullest potential.
A little while later, Jonathan Bach & James Bach tweeted on Traps in testing
JBTestPilot: The #1 trap that testers fall into when I ask them to test something: They start testing'.
CuriousTester: I am trapped! din't see testing without questioning as a trap! Traps work that way. This is more often than I would wish to get trapped!
JBTestPilot: No worries... there are many ways out of traps. The trick is, knowing you're IN one.
JamesMarcusBach: Good testing is a questioning process. All tests are questions. But some things are better asked of humans.
Here I am inflicted with lack of good questioning skills. I did not worry much about it until it started affecting my ability to test better. Now you ask ‘Do you mean you never questioned till date?’. Of course, I did. They did not seem to add value to what I already do. They did not appear to bring in new ideas. In short, I am not skilled at questioning yet.
[ Tester ] - [ Questioning Skills ] = [ Unskilled Testing ]
I am wondering why questioning is not in my DNA. Is it really in my DNA and I am unaware? I grew up as an obedient child. I don’t remember saying ‘No’ to my parents, no matter what I was told to do - a very big claim indeed (grins). When I say as a child, I mean the period from which I remember the events of my life to a considerable extent. Being obedient, not breaking the rules, not being demanding and many more blocked my ability to question since childhood.
In general, questions are not encouraged in India (I think so). They are seen as a symbol of revolt. Questions from elders are reprimanded and questions from children are snubbed. Children are taught to be obedient without questioning. If they break the rules, they will be punished. Yes, child beating is quite normal and not violent. Actually, its not even violent as it sounds to you as you read this. A 911 type helpline may flop here. Growing amidst a culture where questioning is a taboo could be one reason why I am not good at it.
Every question adds a new dimension to better understanding through answers. Yet, we don’t question. The sad part is most of us don’t question because we don’t know that we can question. We have the liberty to question, but we don’t.
Question what? Question your product, question your testing mission, question your test strategies question your deliverables. Question anything that you think will make a difference to what you do. Some people are good at questioning and a few others are not so good. The good news is that this skill can be inculcated with constant practice by one and all. It can be honed over a period of time.
Practice questioning skills with your programmers/team members. Play games that help improve your questioning skills. Play Twenty questions game. Playing Dumb Charades might be of great help too. Ask the right questions. To ask the right questions, you will need to ask many wrong questions and learn from them. Open ended questions may be too broad. Close ended questions may be too vague. Probing questions focus on specific areas (can be open or close ended) and are very useful. A good mix of above three types of questions will improve questioning skills. Note taking if coupled with Questioning is a powerful tool for testing.
Wishing You a Prosperous & Happy New Year 2010!
Addendum on 30th April 2010
One way to practice questioning skills is using Q-Patterns by Vipul Kocher.
P.S: The title of this post is inspired by Rahul Mirakhur who made a mention of 'Questioning in your DNA' during one of our informal talks.
Happy Questioning,
Parimala Shankaraiah
Nice one dear! It is indeed very important to encourage questioning..
ReplyDeleteI would never accept anything without questioning, I do that even today..! :D I have troubled my parents indeed.. There is a standard ans when we question out parents.. We never questioned our parents, so you shouldn't either.. I would say how dumb u and ur parents were ;) ;)
After a few years, I realised neither something is right, nor it is wrong.. This philosophical thought changed my questioning attitude. When I wouldn't get convincing answers for my paradoxical questions especially, I thought no point in asking anybody any questions..
After few more years, I now feel questioning is indeed important.. It makes you understand how different people percieve things and situations. From that one can derive a lot ! :)
Happy and prosperous new year to you too :)
BTW, whats your next blog about ? ;) ;)
Lots of love,
Netra
@Netra
ReplyDeleteWe never questioned our parents, so you shouldn't either.. I would say how dumb u and ur parents were
There is a lot of stupidity involved whenever questions are discouraged saying 'Nobody questioned. so you should not either'. There is ignorance when questions are discouraged simply because the recipient doesn't know the answer or too lazy to find an answer. There is lack of awareness to share facts or debunk old myths and practices.
When I wouldn't get convincing answers for my paradoxical questions especially, I thought no point in asking anybody any questions..
A lot of us are trapped in similar situations. We somehow tend to believe that if we have questions, we have to reach out to a human. This is not necessarily true. You can reach out to humans, your past experiences, your knowledge and many more. The internet today helps you find just anything that you want to know about. You just need to explore!
After few more years, I now feel questioning is indeed important.. It makes you understand how different people percieve things and situations
Questioning helps find answers for the unknowns. It also helps confirm if what we understand is the correct one. Questioning also brings more questions (probe questions) which result in a deeper analysis of what is being questioned.
BTW, whats your next blog about ?
Hehehe. I really don't know. I have lots on my list, but not sure about which one I would choose next :-)
Thank You,
Parimala Shankaraiah
@Sunjeet
ReplyDeleteIn my own personal experience of Indian culture & upbringing although questionining might not be readily encouraged ( as a matter of fact it is the case with other cultures ) but then it flows both ways...nobody is stopping you from being thick skinned and shedding the fear of rebuttal . I believe if you have the questioning streak in you no cultural bars can hold you back .
This is more of a 'I think so' post rather than a generalised view of the Indian culture. I do agree that cultural barriers should not hold back anyone, but what if I did not know that it was a barrier at all in the first place. This thought is the essence of this post.
It may or may not be applicable to other cultures or countries. Atleast, I am not aware as I have not witnessed any other culture directly. If you have witnessed a lot more and are better informed, then it does help when you share your thoughts on such forums. I thank you for that.
I think you are equating your inability/lack of skill in a particular area with your upbringing and holding Indian culture culprit...sorry...i dont agree to that !
I agree to disagree. I am not holding Indian culture as the culprit. To be specific, I said 'Growing amidst a culture where questioning is a taboo could be one reason why I am not good at it'. I said 'COULD BE" no more, no less.
Let me say this: I love my country inspite of its ups and downs, pluses and minuses. One of the key reasons for me to blog is to get our national flag high up on the global map. This post was just my thought. Somewhere inside, I thought that this might have been the reason. Trust me, this is no blamegame.
Thanks a lot for bringing this up - I don't want to sound racist here!
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
Questioning in testing does not have to be insolent. You can be a deferential, even submissive questioner, and still get the job done. Perhaps you are better suited, by your background and temperament, to develop that approach.
ReplyDeleteKeep remembering, as you question, that the reason you are questioning is to serve your client.
Some questions are a problem because of what they imply. Asking "Are all the files there?" may seem to imply "A stupid person like you might forget to give me some files." So, you need to be aware of that, and learn to be less direct in such questions. In this case, you might say "I want to be sure that I understand each of the files that should be here and what it does, so that can test each one. Do you know where I can find a master list of the files, and maybe a description of each one? Or maybe you could go over them with me?"
Someone like you, Pari, should not feel obligated to copy the questioning style of a brash American like me. I want you to develop an approach to testing that is effective, but that is also harmonious with your heritage and personality.
And always remember, you are not alone. On any given test team there will be people more assertive in questioning and those who are more gentle. Both styles are useful. No one person needs to be all things.
Parimala, hi!
ReplyDeleteYes, questioning is a very important act/trait for testers, as testing is "questioning a product in order to evaluate it" (James Bach), and can't be done (properly) without it.
However, I agree less with calling this "Questioning in the DNA", as it seems to imply that the trait is inborn, and can't be modified. This can lead to demotivation - "I don't question, and there's nothing I can do to it"
As you rightly say in the post, questioning can be acquired by proper practice, culture and effort.
Regarding culture, many times people that grow in a no-questions environment, DO question the behavior of those that aren't such. So it is just a matter of redirecting the questions :).
Last, most times obedience does not conflict with questioning. A tester can question and still be obedient. A child too.
[ On a side note: It is nowadays known that the DNA can change over time. But still, you can understand what I mean :) ]
@James
ReplyDeleteSomeone like you, Pari, should not feel obligated to copy the questioning style of a brash American like me. I want you to develop an approach to testing that is effective, but that is also harmonious with your heritage and personality.
Thank you for your feedback, James. I strongly believe in being gentle in a team setup. I am usually polite, in fact over-polite unless someone is going to walk up to me and say testing is a junk job.
My approach with people is being problem-centric rather than people-centric. This seems to solve most of the problems. At times, no matter how polite or submissive or deferential I am, people might get offended or misinterpret what I say. Its these situations that need to be handled carefully by elaborating what I said.
Interestingly, I don't seem to be good enough in packaging my posts with gentleness (atleast this one). Maybe. I don't know.
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
First of all being a tester or not does not lie in your DNA from my point of view. Like any skill it can be taught. Michael Bolton, James Bach, Cem Kaner, Matt Heusser, ... are all teaching how to become a good tester. Alistair Cockburn introduced me to the Shu-Ha-Ri model of skill development, which I favor currently, though there are a whole lot of other models and techqniues to learn.
ReplyDeleteFrom your description I think the biggest impediment lies in the perceived rule that questioning is a tabu. This is at the essence of your description to me. Cockburn and Weinberg both introduced to me the mindset of breaking these rules. While Cockburn directly speaks of breaking these perceived rules directly by simply avoiding them (you don't need to enqueue in the line at the buffett, ...), Weinberg introduces a transformation process he learned from Virginia Satir. This transformation process transforms the rule into a guide to choose to follow or not.
Unfortunately I don't remember the whole transformation process. What I remember is a step which weakens the rule:
- I can choose when not to question and when to question.
If I remember correctly the description of the transformation process is detailed in "Becoming a Technical Leader". On another note, by transforming the rule to a guide, you will not perceive to break them. My example above might already point this out.
Kind regards
Markus Gärtner
@Shmuel Gershon
ReplyDeleteHowever, I agree less with calling this "Questioning in the DNA", as it seems to imply that the trait is inborn, and can't be modified. This can lead to demotivation - "I don't question, and there's nothing I can do to it"
The title is tricky indeed :-)
I visited your blog and almost immediately I saw your comments on my blog.
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
@Markus
ReplyDeleteFrom your description I think the biggest impediment lies in the perceived rule that questioning is a tabu. This is at the essence of your description to me.
Yes. It is a perceived rule. Thanks for helping me with the right word
Alistair Cockburn introduced me to the Shu-Ha-Ri model of skill development, which I favor currently, though there are a whole lot of other models and techqniues to learn
Shu-Ha-Ri model is arousing my curiousity. I will read up on it. Thank you very much for your inputs.
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
It sounds like you are learning a lot. And it sounds like you are enjoying it. Terrific!
ReplyDeleteHere are some more questions to think about asking:
http://www.sqablogs.com/jstrazzere/2077/Ask+Great+Questions%21.html
@Joe
ReplyDeleteThanks for pointing me to your post. It's a good read and helps me to come up with my own questions.
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
Hi Pari,
ReplyDeleteA vert relevant post indeed. As testers, we should be asking questions - I would say for each and every letter in the code :P But sad that many of us are not doing it!! Completely agree to the fact that the scenario which a child grows up in India is the main problem :)
Coming back to ur blog after some time :) Keep up the good work :)
Wishing you and your family a wonderful year ahead :) Happy New Year!!
Nice post!!
ReplyDeleteQuestioning some times treated as a sign of arrogance and it may differ in the scale of arrogance from person to person, this might be one of the reason for those who refrain them self from questioning.
While framing/ asking a question person should know what to ask and how it is going to affect his knowledge. No question is a dumb question and no question is less important ones. It is just that from some questions we learn more and from some we learn less.
All is a part of learning process.
Your post reminds me of something I wrote many years ago: "Philosophical Questions for the Software Tester"...I see it's still up on stickyminds: http://bit.ly/5ZnIwD
ReplyDelete@Nandagopal
ReplyDeleteComing back to ur blog after some time :) Keep up the good work :)
Happy New Year to you too. Keep visiting :-)
@Tarik
Questioning some times treated as a sign of arrogance and it may differ in the scale of arrogance from person to person, this might be one of the reason for those who refrain them self from questioning.
I have faced this problem in the past. I always thought that asking a question is a sign of lack of knowledge or intelligence. A few years later I realised that a lot of problems can be solved quickly if right questions are asked and asked sooner.
In some teams, people who have good questions don't ask because they either get intimidated by seniors around them or that they think that the questions are not good enough. You rightly said there are no dumb questions. Its so true.
@Bernie
Thank you for pointing to your article Bernie.
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Parimala,
ReplyDeleteA good post. I would recommend you to read the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. This book is not on testing but elaborate on PDI (Power Distance Index) in one chapter. I am in complete agreement with your post especially with your views on Questioning by children in India and this has more to do with our culture. Search google on "Geert Hofstede's Power Distance Index" to read more about this.
Thanks,
Rahul
"Yes, child beating is quite normal and not violent. Actually, its not even violent as it sounds to you as you read this."
ReplyDeleteI'm in chock.
Are you seriously saying that it is okay to beat a child?
Can you honestly claim that there is a difference between beating an adult and a child?
Actually, you would be right, there is a difference: the child is defenceless.
@Natooktesting
ReplyDeleteI am really surprised by the diversified comments to this post. I am not professing that child beating is okay or beating in general is okay. It is just that if kids are punished by their parents (mild punishment), kids don't call the police. Again, parents here are not so rude that they beat their children day in and day out. Its a beautiful country and amazing poeple out here. I better learn to choose words carefully from now on :-)
The idea of this post was to highlight the essence of questioning in a tester. This was not to showcase anything in general about India as a country. Again, this was just my perception as I reiterated in my earlier comments.
I think this strongly calls for a follow up post,
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
The basic need of questioning is innate within all of us. We all have it as children but cultural impact and upgringing stifles it to an extent. As an elder now I need to be conscious of this when my children raise questions and to answer them to the best of my ability.
ReplyDeleteAs Testers we naturally need this questioning skill to test better and I think most good testers do not have to remind themselves to question, it comes naturally. I guess you must also be good at it given your proclaimed reputation in testing circles on the web and maybe you unnecessarily chide yourself into thinking otherwise, I do not know.
So does it have to be a habit? I do not think so. Because the need to understand the product in all its nuances would force us to question whoever can best give us that information. The important thing here is the need to be not shy nor hesitant or fearful of either authority or circumstance in asking them when needed to better understand the test idea/scenario.
The cultural differences you bring about is a sidelight (not a highlight) which matters less in my view. To each his own (India's glory is for me and for us to cherish. Others can but envy the parents we so dearly love and respect).
The essential thing in the context of testing is to serve the customer by doing the best we can and being curious and passionate certainly helps.
@Sandeep
ReplyDeleteI guess you must also be good at it given your proclaimed reputation in testing circles on the web and maybe you unnecessarily chide yourself into thinking otherwise, I do not know.
I like your use of words, Sandeep. A few testing experiences led me to think that I am little weak in question, but the good news I thought was this 'It is Fixable'. This can be worked on which I am doing right now. It appears to me that I am making quite good progress too.
What I am also aware is that we should not question for the heck of questioning when there is no value add post the questioning phase itself.
Thank You,
Parimala Shankaraiah
Hi Pari,
ReplyDeleteNice post and interesting to know that you encourage questioning. I got to tell you that you really have a lot of patience, polite in replying to the comments. Hope, even i will be treated in the same manner :-)
So then let's get started.
@ [ Tester ] - [ Questioning Skills ] = [ Unskilled Testing ]
>> When someone gives you a product and share the business purpose, technical details of that application and asks you to test - what type of questions will you ask? How much questioning is appropriate? When i give you an assignment of that kind and if you don't ask me the questions which i want you to ask b4 testing, is that mean you are not a good tester? What are the parameters i need to set before asking questions? what is silly and what is superb kind of a question? This notion of art of questioning sometimes gives a wrong impression about someone. It's not that all the time you need to ask questions.
Questioning ability depends on your knowledge with respect to the type of application you are testing, domain knowledge, intended purpose, technical knowldge or platform used to build the application, intended user behaviour, lessons learned in previous apps, challenges with respect to the type of applications worked on etc. Questioning alone doesn't make someone a good or bad tester. It all depends on how you manage your work and deliver the results effectively and efficiently. What to ask and when to ask kind differs from situation to situation, person to person.
Note: Quality is different to different people. Quality may not be always with the defects found in system test to defects found in production. If we start talking on this in detail then it might takeup in a different direction or you need to write one more blog to address it :) Because we won't assure or check the quality of a product under test and we only observe and report the behaviour during the test cycle. So to observe and report in an effective way, you need to have a good commanding on the task you are going to handle and if needed you will ask questions to know the expectations behind the work. Again it boils down to the same situation like what and how much is appropriate? What if someone doesn't ask the questions that you want them to? Even for a same question you might get different answers from different people. How will you choose the correct answer?
Art of questioning or elders/superiors snubbing you at that is not associated with any nation. I didn't like that thought of yours saying "questions are not encouraged in India (I think so). They are seen as a symbol of revolt. Questions from elders are reprimanded and questions from children are snubbed. Children are taught to be obedient without questioning. If they break the rules, they will be punished". I don't remember anybody punishing me for questioning. May be the type of questions and the number of questions i ask has changed from time to time. And even for a same question you might get different answers from different people. How will you choose the correct answer?
Few of us are simply seeing and showcasing bad aspects of Indian testers. We have become like news channels and news papers. We won't promote good things and habits we have and the good work few has done in this area. Every news channel or news paper displays market crash, bombings, killings, cold war, celebrities and their misbehaviour in the headlines and none of them care to showcase few amazing things few people have taken up and getting success even. We see good work in a small column in one of the pages inside the paper. Few countries does exactly the apposite things but it doen't mean that everything is fine there. I request few people to remove the nation's name when we talk bad habits or practises of a community.
Cheers,
Vijay...
>>>I got to tell you that you really have a lot of patience, polite in replying to the comments. Hope, even i will be treated in the same manner :-)
ReplyDeleteI take that as a compliment. Let’s get started (taking a deep breath).
>>>When i give you an assignment of that kind and if you don't ask me the questions which i want you to ask b4 testing, is that mean you are not a good tester? What are the parameters i need to set before asking questions?
Good questions, but don’t you think you would be the right person to decide about what you should ask, what you should not and how much of it. Like I mentioned my response to Sandeep above, ‘we should not question for the heck of questioning when there is no value add post the questioning phase itself’. Who else can be better at deciding that other than you. I have learned this by trial and error method. Some programmers/teams encourage questions, some trample them. Some misquote them as lack of knowledge or experience on the person who asked the question, some make a fool of that person, some even goof up their appraisals because they ask tough questions (happened to me). There are many consequences once you start questioning. Plan it out. Even if you don’t, Experience will teach u and each one of us.
>>>Questioning alone doesn't make someone a good or bad tester
Questioning can be a key differentiator for a bad and a good tester. We are no gods to know everything and unless we ask, we don’t get good enough answers. Sometimes, the answers might be wrong. These things happen – we need to use our judgment. Again, questioning does not mean it has to be verbal. It could be in written form – emails, presentations, documents, and test reports anything. It could even be a strange glance that one gives you while you are talking about something.
>>>Art of questioning or elders/superiors snubbing you at that is not associated with any nation. I didn't like that thought of yours saying "questions are not encouraged in India (I think so). …..”
I respect your view. But like I said ‘I think so’ was prominent at the end of what I said. It is what I thought about why I did not question. Turns out this is one of my poorly written and highly mis-interpreted posts so far.
>>>I don't remember anybody punishing me for questioning. May be the type of questions and the number of questions I ask has changed from time to time. And even for a same question you might get different answers from different people. How will you choose the correct answer?
You just said it Vijay. Nobody punished you for questioning. You were lucky I guess. I wasn’t. Again, I am not blaming my parents or my culture. Maybe my upbringing had an impact. Maybe, I did not revolt back. Maybe I chose to be obedient and not question. It’s what I chose at that time that I got conditioned to. As I am adapting and getting over my conditioning , this blog post came as a thought in me.
>>>we won't promote good things and habits we have and the good work few has done in this area. Every news channel or news paper displays market crash, bombings, killings, cold war, celebrities and their misbehaviour in the headlines and none of them care to showcase few amazing things few people have taken up and getting success even. We see good work in a small column in one of the pages inside the paper.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the best comments on my blog! Cheers!
We don’t have enough people who can promote good things and habits we have and the great work many have done. Let’s start with us. Let’s start with you and me. Let us voice our opinions on our blogs, on public forums, in conferences, in our local communities, in our organizations and at a global level. It is lot of hard work, yet great work.
If you ask me if I maligned India in this post, I disagree. A few comments above will tell you that some problems are prevalent in many cultures and nations. This did not come out clearly in my writing. I think I will rewrite this blog post as part of my writing exercise and post it.
Keep your cool questions coming in. I hope I have done justice to your questions :-)
Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah
Hi Pari,
ReplyDeleteYes, that was a compliment from one of your fan :-). Usually when i post a question or ask a question about one's understanding and their beliefs, they tend to reply in a hurry and most of the times in an anger. After reading your reply, i thought that i conveyed my thoughts in a right manner or may be you understood it as i wanted to put it. That's nice and encouraging in learning through such communities where we can improve our knowledge. I want people to take it in right spirit because only compliments alone won't make you improve your thought process. Billion minds, billion thoughts and they may or may not be thinking alike.
@ Questioning can be a key differentiator for a bad and a good tester. We are no gods to know everything and unless we ask, we don’t get good enough answers. Sometimes, the answers might be wrong. These things happen – we need to use our judgment. Again, questioning does not mean it has to be verbal. It could be in written form – emails, presentations, documents, and test reports anything. It could even be a strange glance that one gives you while you are talking about something.
>> You mean to say many are not questioning enough and simply writing scripts based on their knowledge, few available documents? If your answer is yes, then I don't agree to it 100% (% is very vague here, so i don't expect you to ask me like what % i agree or disagree and how did i arrive at it :-)).
- Until and unless you know what the customer wants and what you have agreed to provide from a vendors perspective, you will not comeup with scripts or you can't run your tests effectively. So in my view, we as a tester question as much as possible and then only come up with the tests.
- Questioning starts from ideation to deployment and even post deployment stage. Different stake holders might be asking different questions at each stage.
- Such questions bring out better tests at each stage as application go mature.
- I did ask you the question "When i give you an assignment of that kind and if you don't ask me the questions which i want you to ask b4 testing, is that mean you are not a good tester? What are the parameters i need to set before asking questions?", i didn't mean that questioning is to be verbal in nature.
- better test writing approaches will be adapted only when you understand in and out of the functionality to be tested. Not only functionality but even non-functional test cases can also be covered based on the scope and the criticality(might be wrt security, personal details, finance, impact on other application or on the large environment etc) of the application. Do you think as a tester we tend to ignore these things by not asking appropriate questioning? I think as per my experience usually we take care of all such things.
- All i wanna say is i think irrespective of cultures, nations, upbringing 'We all ask questions and the style and the degree of asking questions or communication style might be different but we are asking questions to the extent in getting the information that we want that help in verify and validate the claims by developers.' So it's a very vague statement that says "Questioning can be a key differentiator for a bad and a good tester."
Good post!
ReplyDeleteQuestioning is a bread and butter of a tester to enjoy the detective job in finding bugs. :)